After Howard Lutnick is tucked up in bed, at about 1am, he takes a phone call from his boss Donald Trump to discuss trade and shoot the breeze.

This revelatory titbit appeared in a New Yorker profile on the secretary of state for commerce. “They talk about ‘real stuff’, like Canadian steel tariffs and also about ‘nothing’,” the journalist wrote. “Sporting events, people, who’d you have dinner with, what was this guy like, can you believe what this guy did, what’s the TV like, I saw this on TV, what’d you think of what this guy said on TV, what did you think about my press conference, how about this Truth?”

Of course this is hardly the first time Trump has picked up the phone to someone well past their bedtime. During his first presidency, he reportedly called Mike Flynn at 3am with a question: is a strong — or weak — dollar good for the economy? Don’t you hate those thoughts and worries that strike in the middle of the night? Though most therapists would probably advise jotting such quandaries in a notepad rather than calling an adviser with expertise in national security, not the economy.